Episode 15 | December 5th, 2023

How to Utilize the Enneagram Test as a Hiring Tool

A2O Digital invites Ed Hesling back to take a deeper dive into the Enneagram Test and how to utilize it as a business owner or manager during the hiring process. See how this invaluable tool will help you with your business by identifying the best candidates for the position and can help with employee retention too!

Doug 00:00

Okay, welcome. My name is Doug. I have a guest today Ed Hesling who's owner of Precision Garage Door in Harrisburg, and some of you may recognize him, because he's been with us before. Ed is a big proponent and utilizes a tool called the Enneagram, and if you have watched the first episode, we wound up getting a lot of questions, come back to us and inquiries to get more information. And so I asked Ed, if he would be gracious enough to come back and spend another session or two and talk further about the Enneagram. Because it's a tool that can be used for a variety of things. I think, Ed, when you were here last time, we talked about how you use Enneagram in the hiring process and bringing employees and trying to get the right employee for the right job. I know we dove into that a little bit. But obviously it's much more than that. You also use it for employee retention, right? And the leadership and like, how do you lead your people? And how do you how do you get the things you want out of them through that leadership? And then and even how to deal with maybe when you got a disgruntled employee or something's going wrong. So hopefully you can talk a little bit more about that today in this episode, and I'm excited actually, to learn more about it. I, I've gone through the book that you had given me, which is called back to you. Is it back to you, The Road Back to You. Thank you. Yeah, and I did I actually listened to it two times. But I forgot the name of the title. And so I'd like to start today about how do you utilize and analyze, you know, the test in some of these other ways. So let's start with hiring again. Let's kind of like, recap, because not everybody watched the first episode. And if you can talk a little bit about how you use it in the hiring process to start with and then kind of we'll go from there.

Ed 02:27

That's a great question. Thank you for having me back, Doug. So how we use the Enneagram in our hiring process is obviously we use Paradox to get applications in. And then anything that's a good fit through Paradox, you know, this sets up an interview, and they come right on in.

Doug 02:45

And I'm gonna interrupt you, I'm sorry, Paradox is something that I don't think anybody has talked about. But that's a, that's a program that you that you use to be able to get employees. And it responds rapidly, right. And we can do another episode on that sometime. But what you're talking about, right?

Ed 03:00

Yep, yep. It just helps generate applications to the business. And then we bring these people in, and we have discussion. And if if we like them, if I think that they could do well in the business, whether it's an installer or technician, I wrapped up the interview process by saying, hey, you know, I have a tool that I use to become a better leader, for anyone that I'm serious about. Just need you to be honest, when you take this test. And, you know, it's about 45 minutes long, 144 questions, if you could just take this test, I'm very interested to see the results. And they go off and take that test. If they don't take the test, we know not to hire them. If they do is that happen? Yes, it does.

Doug 03:40

They got there, I spent 45 minutes, and

Ed 03:42

I spent 45 minutes. And that's, that's it's a good filter right there that, you know, offering that test because if they're not serious about taking the test, then obviously they won't take the position very seriously. But if they are serious about taking the test, and you see that they take the test shows a level of commitment there. When I get the test results back, I'm already analyzing, you know, where would they fall? Well, in the business, if it's a you know, if I'm looking for a technician, do they fit what I'm looking for, as a tech, if I'm looking for an installer do they fit what I'm looking for, as an installer. And you know, I have scores and, and data in mind of what I'm looking for. But it's really important to make sure that you look at all nine results and where they fall on the test to make sure you're getting a great quality candidate.

Doug 04:30

So you're using, there's the there's nine different ways that that get categorized. And you it's important to look at all nine of them to understand whether they're good, or you're not just saying what did they score the highest and correct and classifying them correct?

Ed 04:45

Yeah, you know, it's the strongest scores. You know, it's really important to look at their strongest personality types. But it's also really important to take note of the weakest personality types as well because there could be something that you're looking for down there that you may want To be higher than it is, it's it's really, you know, the best way to describe it when I'm analyzing the results is like looking at a math equation and kind of just breaking down the math equation to see if it's a, if this candidate is a really quality fit or not.

Doug 05:14

So there's nine categories. And what I'm hearing you say is, if you're hiring for maybe a technician, you're looking for maybe a different personality trait than you might be for an installer. Can you talk just a little bit about like, like, maybe how you distinguish what you're looking for?

Ed 05:36

Great question. So when I'm looking for technicians, obviously, the job of technicians go out to a customer's house, diagnose issues and give options for the customer to feel confident in. And technicians. You know, they have to have a set of skills where they had to be motivated, and they have to have a set of personal personal people skills. And so I look for a little bit of a combination of both that are kind of highly motivated. So for technicians, I look for type eights that are the challengers. They like you know going to bat when things are tough, and they like winning. And so getting closing the sale or closing the job is something that's really important to them, type twos and threes, they're very customer service based people, you know, they they really do well with other people and in very much populated environments. And so it's really important to make sure that there's those scores are up there as well, as well as you know, it's it doesn't hurt to have a type one that perfectionist and going to backtrack a little bit the type twos or the helpers, type threes or the achievers, type ones that are the perfectionist, so they they want to make sure everything's real perfect. And then I also look for technicians type six, the loyalists.

Doug 06:53

Interesting, right? Why do you do that? What are you looking for? No, I like that. Why is that important? You feel

Ed 07:00

It helps us employee retention. If you can really get an employee who's a type six to believe in the process and believe in the dream that the company has set forward. They're going to be your ride or die employees, they're going to be the employees that will stick through it till the end, though, though, if they really believe in the vision of the business, they'll stick through the business through all the highs and lows. And I think I think that employee is very valuable to have.

Doug 07:27

Yeah, retention, obviously, is critical. Like you get somebody you hired and put all of training into them. And they're they're a job jumper and they're moving to something else. And you put a lot of time effort.

Ed 07:39

And it's a headache and a waste of money. Yes.

Doug 07:41

Yeah, I can understand that. So like, what would you give me let's talk about a different type of job. Like, maybe an installer, what might you be looking at for an installer.

Ed 07:53

Installer, you know, you always have to deliver on that picture, perfect install something that really wows the customer. And so I really like to look for type ones being the highest score for running, which is that perfectionist, perfectionist, perfectionist, they can walk into a room that was freshly cleaned, and they'd be the first one to point out where the dust or what spot was missed in that room. And so having everything kind of be picture perfect, it's really important to the perfectionist. But I'd also like scores to fall behind that one, you want them to be motivated. So maybe a type eight, you want them to be really good with customers and get along great with customers. So a type two or type three is really important there. And then just to back it up, just have that six somewhere up there.

Doug 08:41

Obviously I'm in the door business with you, right, because I I own Precision in the New York metro area. But if I have an installer go and they they put that door up and it doesn't work perfectly or if something goes wrong the next day. It's a nightmare. So you got somebody that cares enough about making sure it's done right. Yeah, all your callbacks disappear, right?

Ed 09:03

Correct. Yeah, the type ones they really make sure it's done right the first time, so you don't have to worry about it the second time. Yeah, our callbacks have greatly been reduced focusing on type ones for installs alone.

Doug 09:15

So if you're a hiring manager, and a lot of Precisions are all different sizes, right? Sometimes small startup Precision location, might be an owner that just you know, bought it and he doesn't have a hiring manager, he is the hiring manager. But in the larger Precision locations, we have HR departments and hiring managers and if you're a hiring manager, you want your hiring manager and understand this like inside and out right.

Ed 09:45

I want them to dive as deep as they can into it. Yeah. It's it's if you if you want success, you know, the Enneagram is something that you if you want success as fast as possible the Enneagram is something to get to consider. This is a This is one of my three tools to get 10 years 10 million for a gold personal of mine to do 10 million revenue by my 10th year, and I don't think I would be on, I wouldn't be on track to do that if it wasn't for the Enneagram.

Doug 10:14

You know, what I fascinates me is how every time I talk to you, you understand this topic better? You do. I mean, I mean, first time you brought it up to me, we were in a meeting, it was probably over a year, it might be closer to two years ago, when you first talked to me about it. And you were like in the beginning of that journey, but you've really invested yourself into this. And you realize it's really been important to your success of your, your company, you know, that is like, it's kind of a necessity for you, isn't it?

Ed 10:45

Yeah, it's a it's a lifeline. Now it's an artery, it's, it's, I would feel lost if I didn't have like the Eennegram to help me manage the company the way that I'm managing it now.

Doug 10:56

I want to ask, do you answer your own phones? Because not every place does? Are you having a call center? Like how are you was answering the phones for you?

Ed 11:05

I have one person who answers between 8 - 4pm. And then I use a call center,

Doug 11:10

That's a combination. So sometimes call centers, hybrid? So when you have somebody that's in a customer service? And maybe that's, I guess that's the way we classify a customer service department, right? What kind of style? Are you looking for there and why?

Ed 11:26

For someone answering the phone? Yeah, answer the phone for you. That's a great question. I think, you know, obviously, answering the phone as quick as possible is something that's really important. And so I think at type eight to be up there, it's really good because they they want to have a good average record. If you if you have measurements on how fast the phones are answered. I think type eights will do a really good job of keeping that average pretty low. But you also want that person to be personable kind of like, happy to talk to you instead of answering the phone. Hello, this is Precision, how can I help you you want that person and be like, "Hey, thank you for choosing Precision Door Service. This is Ed how can I help you today?" So having like a type 2 the helper or the type three, the achiever or even type 4 the romantic or the individualist, they're really good at having those conversations and sounding very positive. To make the customer feel more comfortable pulling the trigger and booking an appointment.

Doug 12:24

Yeah, so in our customer service departments, they will answer phones for a new new job coming in. And the objective is to, you know, get that customer say, Okay, let's go set this up, set the appointment, right. And it's not really a sales process, but you have to have the desire to want to close that at that thing, get that job off the street and put it on into your fleet. And, but then there's other person could be calling back, because you did business and they got a problem. And now you got to have empathy built in. And so you're there's a lot of skills and that type of position. So I can I can imagine maybe a different type of person for each of those type of things.

Ed 13:11

If you really want to dive into it, yeah, absolutely. If you have, like you have this type of person calling in, they get sent to this other line for this type of issue, you definitely want that person answering and picking up that phone to be built as strong as they can to handle that customer.

Doug 13:30

Yeah and most most small businesses aren't able to be able to have, you know, different people that but it's interesting, and you need a lot of different skill sets for that job. Yep. And you talked a little bit about you use this with disgruntled employees. Tell me a little bit how you use it there.

Ed 13:48

That's a good question. So whenever I have a disgruntled employee, or if I hear from lead techs, or anybody from management that this, this employee is becoming of a issue, I always try to pull up that employees Enneagram results. Because when when you get their Enneagram results back, it doesn't just tell you like where they fall, it gives you like 15 to 20 pages of information of the Enneagram and who this person may be. And I always find that when you look at it, you can carry it down to two things, you can look at one that the 10 levels of development and figure out from what you're hearing from your management team, where they fall in 10 levels of development. And then you can also look at the Enneagram styles, deadly sin, for example of a deadly sin and what may get us in trouble because Doug, I know that you and I are type eights, the type Eight Deadly Sin is lust, but it's not unlike the the sexual content. It's more so just like we have this desire to get as much out of things as possible. And I think with that desire, we tend to have tunnel vision because we focus so much on the end goal on that success, we get very narrow tunnel vision. And it's what surround that tunnel that may get us in a position that we we don't want to be in or that we weren't expecting. And so that's why the lust is a type eight challenge is deadly sins because we're just so narrow focused, which is why not to get off track, but which is why I've made it really important to hire a type six, as my assistant GM, Dan Madison, he's my assistant GM. And they're very focused on the process on how to get to a destination, where I may be so focused on the destination, having a type six has really allowed me the ability to see everything more transparently. So to answer your to go back to the question that you answered, I'll look at the deadly sin to figure out what their deadly sin is and figure out if that has a role to play in this issue. And then once I have all the information, I can approach that employee and just say, you know, for example, I'll use one of my employees who's a type three, who his his deadly sin is feeling a sense of worthlessness. And usually, if you feel a sense of worthlessness, you'd become more isolated and more closed off, and you kind of build up a wall. And so, you know, I approached him we had a discussion, I just I use stuff like hey, man, you know, is everything going on? Right in your life? You know, what's what's going on? And, you know, he he wasn't giving me much information, but he would give me a little bit. And knowing this idea of what, you know, lower level of development and you know, him feeling worthlessness. You know, I started relating questions that were geared towards, hey, could you feel like you're not worth doing much here right now. And that's when he started feeling more of a connection in that conversation. He's like, you know, I feel like, I'm not doing enough here. I feel like I'm failing here. I'm feeling like that no one's appreciating the hard work that I'm doing. And it was just that the Enneagram was that crack that I needed to get into that employees mind? Mind? That sounds a little bit too dramatic. But yeah, well, I got what I needed to get that employee to break down as well as and really, really opened up to me how he got to feeling that way. And at that point, it was just the reassurance like, Look, man, I think you're doing a great job, like, you're closing percentages, XY and Z, you're having all these great reviews. And, you know, you've been doing this consistently for such a long time. And, you know, part of the that discussion was, I wasn't noticing it as much as he imagined, I should notice that. And it was, it was an eye opener for me to kind of make sure like, Okay, moving forward, you know, I'm gonna make sure I stay on top of keeping a close eye and give him recognition. So that way, you don't feel like you're unworthy of recognition. And it really, it really got me walking away from that conversation, not thinking, dude, why are you so disgruntled, you better get your act together and do your job. And him thinking, if I took that approach, my boss is such a jerk. Like, he doesn't care. You know, he left that conversation thinking. And he really values me and really took the time to really figure this out with me and I feel really good about myself.

Doug 18:23

Yeah, so this kinda like you were talking about obviously, disgruntled employees, but your leadership team needs to understand this well, to be able to deal with that disgruntled employee, because it's a two way street, right? You have to if your leadership team doesn't understand how to do what you just did there, you maybe you lose that guy maybe and he's maybe been a very valuable employee and he's, you know, he's looking for a job somewhere else because doesn't feel appreciated.

Ed 18:56

It's crazy because I think as a type eight, it's what's been a challenge for me, it's always been easy for easier for me to say, Get your act together and do your job. And, you know, my my partner in crime, Steven, he, he he's a high type three and he really helps me focus on like, hey, think of like the relationship aspect that you're building with these employees. And so with with him holding me accountable, because you know, my weaknesses, not focusing much on our relationship, but focusing on the goals. He keeps me really good accountable. And the anagram is helps me discover, you know, what, what could be the deadly sin that's interfering with them and, and starting to create this disgruntled illness in the environment and, you know, gauging on the 10 levels of development, you know, where they fall in the healthy level of, are they too far gone? Or can we can we recover and reconcile? The Enneagram is a good roadmap to kind of figure out your place and where to start that conversation with the employee.

Doug 19:59

So I'm gonna throw you a little bit of a curveball. We had a training class yesterday at our location in New Jersey. And we had 12 employees there, and I had a situation where some employees, relatively new employees no showed for that. They knew that we had that meeting, they knew that they were supposed to be there at a certain time. And they no showed and they made a decision to not come, but they thought it was okay that they didn't come. And I'm sitting there going, what do I do about this? And I'm just curious, like, what would you do? What would you do with that?

Ed 20:42

Can I ask you able to share me that what their Enneagram styles were?

Doug 20:48

Actually I can, I have to go to my notes and pull it up. So you would look at their Enneagram first and see what style they are? Because you might treat each of them differently?

Ed 20:59

I would approach them entirely differently. Yes.

Doug 21:01

Okay. I do think I do think you know what? I actually want to look this up. I really want your opinion. I do have another question. Which while I'm trying to get this for you. What? What other books did you read? It sounds like you've dove so deep in this. And I actually went through a row back to you twice. And I did an audiobook because I listened to books I don't I don't typically have the time to sit and read them. But so I'm in the car listening or whatever. And sometimes I'm only paying half attention because I'm doing I got other things going on. But what other books have you have you used? It sounds like you've dove so deep into this, you must have read even more.

Ed 21:47

I've only read one book, Road Back to You by Ian Crone. But I way that I dove deep was I did a lot of online research, I follow you know, we had power of social media now. So I follow a lot of Enneagram social media accounts. So I'm on social media, I come across Enneagram style stuff. And I listened to a lot of podcasts. And I it's not that I found a podcast that I like, I just go looking through Enneagram podcasts. And I just find one that looks good. And I just listened to this podcast here. Listen to that podcast there. And a lot of a lot of my knowledge has been questions that I've asked myself about the Enneagram and how to utilize it in a business, and just doing a whole lot of online research.

Doug 22:33

Yeah, you've just you keep getting deeper and deeper. And the more you the more you listen to things and read about it, you get a deeper understanding. I'm struggling with I really want your opinion, you know what, we're going to do another episode with you. And and I'm going to try to pull that up and, and bring it up. And maybe we can talk a little bit further about this because this is be a kind of a really good learning moment for myself, too. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so I I'm fascinated, I, I want to understand it deeper and deeper myself, every time I talk to you, I feel like I gotta I gotta understand this is a great topic.

Ed 23:17

It's funny to say that every time you every time I come here, I think I got to do more research.

Doug 23:24

So yeah, we what I'd like to do is I'd like to have you on again, we try to keep our episodes relatively short, so that we don't, we don't have people invest an hour or two sometimes. So we'll break this up into a couple of sessions. And come back, I'll be able to give you that information. I'm really curious about how you handle that and, and I'll let you talk a little bit further. So thank you so much for joining us today on this episode, and I'm gonna do another one with you really rapidly here

Ed 23:56

Doug, thanks for having me.

Doug 23:57

All right, you got it. Thanks. Bye.

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